مصاحبه اوريانا فالاچى با آيت الله خميني : متن هاى فارسى و انگليسى

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آنچه در زير ميآيد دو متن انگليسى و فارسى از مصاحبه اى است كه توسط اوريانا فالاچى با آيت الله خمينى در روزهاى پس از پيروزى انقلاب در ايران انجام گرفته است . متن انگليسى نقل مستقيمى است از مجله نيويورك تايمز كه در اكتبر سال ۱۹۷۹ منتشر گرديده است، و ترجمه فارسى از كتابى است تحت عنوان "گفتگوهاى اوريانا فالاچى" ، كه توسط غلامرضا امامى تاليف شده است . گفتنى است كه غلامرضا امامى در مصاحبه اى عنوان كرده است كه جمهورى اسلامى به وى اجازه نشر متن اصلى مصاحبه به نوشته خود فالاچى را نداده است و كتاب به اين شرط اجازه چاپ يافته كه از متن ذيل به جاى متن اصلى استفاده شود . توجه كنيد كه قسمتهائى از متن انگليسى كه با قلم زرد مشخص شده اند قسمتهائى هستند كه در ترجمه فارسى وجود ندارند . همچنين لطفا توجه كنيد كه متن انگليسى زير به علت طول مطلب توسط OCR مستقيما از فايل تصويرى به متن تبديل شده است و به همين دليل ممكن است اشكالات املائى در گوشه و كنار آن مشاهده شود كه هنوز فرصت بررسى و تصحيح نيافته ام . با عذر خواهى پيشاپيش از خوانندگان ، از گزارش اينگونه اشكالات در قسمت نظرات بسيار ممنون خواهم شد.

براى خواندن متن انگليسى اينجا را كليك كنيد
و براى خواندن متن فارسى اينجا را

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An Interview With KHOMEINI By Oriana Fallaci October 7, 1979 The New York Times Magazine, pp. 29-31 Note: Highlighted text indicates segment is omitted from the translated version published in Iran. Last month Oriana Fallaci, the Italian journalist who is noted for her provocative interviews with world leaders, journeyed to Iran in hopes of meeting with the leader of the Islamic Revolution, the Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, For 10 days she waited in the holy city of Qum for her interview with the 79year-old Ayatollah, who is the de facto ruler of Iran, On Sept. 12, she was led into the Faizeyah religious school, where Khomeini holds his audiences. She was accompanied by two Iranians Who had helped set up the interview and who served as translators, Miss Fallaci, barefoot, enveloped in a chador ~ the head-to-toe veil of the Moslem woman was seated on a carpet; when the Ayatollah entered, the taped interview began, Miss Fallaci returned the following day for a second audience, The text on these pages is an edited transcript of the sessions. FALLACI: Imam Khomeini, the entire country is in your hands. Every decision you make is an order. So there are many in your country who say that in Iran there is no freedom. that the revolution did not bring freedom. KHOMEINI: Iran is not in my hands. Iran is in the hands of the people. because it was the people who handed the country over to the person who is their servant, and who wants only what is good for them. You saw very well how - after the death [at age 68, in his sleep, Sept. 10] of [Ayatollah Mahmoud] Taleghani - millions of persons went into the streets without the threat of violence. This shows that there is freedom. It also shows that the people only follow men of God. And this is freedom. FALLACI: Forgive me if I insist. Imam Khomeini. I meant that today. in Iran. you raise fear, and many people call you a dictator. The new dictator, the new boss. The new master. How do you comment on that? Does it sadden you. or don't you care? KHOMEINI: On the one hand I'm sorry to hear that. Yes, it hurts me, because it is unjust and unhuman to call me a dictator. On the other hand, I couldn't care less, because I know that wickedness is a part of human nature, and such wickedness comes from our enemies. Considering the road that we lave chosen, a road that is opposed to :he superpowers. it is normal that the servants of foreign interests treat me with their poison, and hurl all kinds of calumnies against me. Nor do I have my illusions that those countries which Ire accustomed to plundering and looting us will stand by silently and idly. Oh, the mercenaries of the Shah say lots of things - even that Khomeini ordered the breasts of women to be cut off. Tell me. since you are here, did you lave any evidence that Khomeini could commit such a monstrous act, that he would cut off the breasts of women? FALLACI: No. I did not. Imam. But 'ou frighten people, as I said. And even his mob which calls your name is frightening. What do you feel - hearing them calling out like this, day and light, knowing that they are there, all If them there sitting for hours, being shoved about, suffering, just to see you or a moment. and to sing your praises? KHOMEINI: I enjoy it. I enjoy hearing and seeing them. Because they are the same ones who rose up to throw out the internal and external enemies. Because their applause is the continuation of the cry with which the usurper was thrown out. It is good that they continue to be agitated, because the enemies have not disappeared. Until the country has settled down. the people must remain fired up, ready to march and attack again. In addition, this is love, an intelligent love. It is impossible not to enjoy it. FALLACI: Love or fanaticism, Imam? It seems to me that this is fanaticism, and of the most dangerous kind. I mean, fascist fanaticism. In fact. there are many who see a fascist threat in Iran today, and Who even maintain that fascism is already being consolidated in Iran. KHOMEINI: No, it is neither fascism nor fanaticism. I repeat, they yell like this because they love me, and they love me because they feel that I care for them, that I act for their good. That is, to apply the Commandments of Islam. Islam is justice. Dictatorship is the greatest sin in the religion of Islam. Fascism and Islamism are absolutely incompatible. Fascism arises in the West, not among people of Islamic Culture. FALLACI: Perhaps we don't understand each other or the meaning of the word fascism, Imam. By fascism I mean a popular phenomenon. the kind we had In Italy when the crowds cheered Mussolini, as here they cheer you, and they obeyed him as they obey i you now. KHOMEINI: No. Because our masses are Moslems, educated by the clergy - that is, by men who preach spirituality and goodness. Fascism would be possible here only if the Shah were to return or if Communism were to take over. Yes, what you say could happen only if Communism would win and wipe us out. Cheering, for me, means to love freedom and democracy. FALLACI: O.K., then. Let's talk about freedom and democracy, Imam. And let's do it like this. In one of your first speeches at Qum, you said that the new Islamic Government would guarantee freedom of thought and of expression for everyone, including Communists and ethnic minorities. But this promise was not kept, and now you define Communists as "sons of Satan," and the leaders of the rebelling ethnic minorities as the "evil of the earth." KIIOMEINI: First you affirm something, and then you expect me to explain your statement. You even presume that I should permit the plots of those who want to bring the country to anarchy and corruption - as though freedom of thought and of expression were the freedom to plot and to corrupt. Therefore, in answer to your question, I say: for more than five months I tolerated, we tolerated, those who did not think as we do. They were free, absolutely free to do whatever they wanted. They fully enjoyed the freedom that was granted to them. I even Invited the Communists to have a dialogue with us. But, in response, they burned the wheat harvest, they burned the urns of the electoral offices, and they reacted to our offer for a dialogue with rifles and arms. In fact, they were the ones who stirred up the problem of the Kurds. Thus, we understood that they were taking advantage of our tolerance to sabotage us, that they did not want freedom but the license to subvert, and we decided to stop them. And when we discovered that - urged on by the former regime and foreign forces _ they were seeking our destruction with other plots and other means, we shut them up to avoid further problems. FALLACI: For example, by closing the newspapers of the opposition. In that speech at Qum you also said that to be modern means to form men who have the right to choose, and to criticize. But the liberal newspaper Ayandegan was shut down. And so were all the leftist newspapers. KHOMEINI: The newspaper Ayandegan was part of the plot I mentioned. It had relations With the Zionists; it got ideas from them to do harm to the country. The same goes for all the newspapers that the attorney general of the revolution judged subversive, and then closed: newspapers Which, through a phony opposition, tried to restore the old regime and to serve foreign interests. We shut them up because we knew who they were, and what they were after. And this is not contrary to freedom. This is done everywhere. FALLACI: No, Imam, It is not. In any event, how can you call those who fought against the Shah, who were persecuted, arrested and tortured by him, as being "nostalgic for the Shah"? How can you call them enemies, how can you deny them a place and the right to exist, those leftists who fought and suffered so much? KHOMEINI: None of them fought or suffered. If anything, they took advantage of the anguish of the people who fought and suffered. You are not very well Informed. A good part of the left which you refer to was abroad during the imperial regime, and came back only after the people had overthrown the Shah. Another group was here, it is true, hidden In their clandestine caves and in their houses. It was only after the people had shed their blood that these leftists came out to take advantage of that blood. But until now nothing bas happened to limit their freedom. FALLACI: Imam, I want to make sure that I understand correctly. You say that the left had no part in the overthrow of the Shah. Not even that segment of the left that had so many people arrested, so many tortured, so many martyred. So, on the left, nobody counts, neither the living nor the dead. KHOMEINI: They did not contribute anything. They did not help the revolution at all. Some of them fought, yes, but only for their ideas, only for their goals, only for their interests. They were not decisive for the victory, they were not responsible, they did not contribute anything. No, the left never cooperated with us, they only gave us problems. During the Shah's regime they were against us as much as they are now, so much so that their hostility toward us was worse than that of the Shah himself, much deeper. It Is not by chance that the present plot comes from them. My view Is that it is not even a real left, but an artificial left, created by the Americans. FALLACI: Do you mean a left made In the United States, Imam? KHOMEINI: Yes, created and supported by the Americans to launch plundering against us, to sabotage and destroy us. FALLACI: So, when you speak of "the people," you refer exclusively to the people connected with the Islamic movement. And I ask you: The people who were killed by the tens of thousands, did they die for freedom, or for Islam? KHOMEINI: For Islam. The people fought for Islam. And Islam means everything, also those things that, in your world, are called freedom, democracy. Yes, Islam contains everything. Islam includes everything. Islam is everything. FALLACI: At this point, Imam, I must ask you what you mean by freedom. KHOMEINI: Freedom; It Is not easy to define this concept. Let us say that freedom is when you can choose your own Ideas and think about them when you please, without being forced to think something else. Let's say that freedom is to live where you want, and to do the work that you like. FALLACI: To think, not to express, or to make your thoughts concrete? And by democracy, what do you mean, Imam? I'm asking this question with much curiosity because - In the [March 1979] referendum on whether there was to be a republic or a monarchy - you prohibited the expression "Islamic Democratic Republic." You banned the word democratic, saying, "Not a word more, not a word less." As a result, the people who believe in you use the term "democracy" as though It were a dirty word. What's wrong With this noun, which seems so beautiful to us in the West? KHOMEINI: To begin With, the word Islam does not need adjectives such as democratic. Precisely because Islam is everything, It means everything. It Is sad for us to add another word near the word Islam, which is perfect. Besides, this democracy, which you love so much and that you consider so valuable, does not have a precise meaning. Aristotle's democracy is one thing, the Soviet democracy is another thing, the democracy of the capitalists is still another. We cannot afford to have such an ambiguous concept placed in our Constitution. Finally, let me give you a historical example, to show you what I mean by democracy. When Ali [the seventh-century Imam whom Shiite Moslems believe to be the first rightful Moslem leader] succeeded the Prophet, and became head or the Islamic state - and this consideration had all the power, and his reign extended from Saudi Arabia to Egypt, and included a large part of Asia and also of Europe - he happened to have a dispute with a Jew. And the Jew had him called by the judge, and All accepted the summons of the judge, and went to him. And when he entered the room, the judge stood up, but Ali said to him angrily, "Why do you stand up when I enter the room but not when the Jew entered? Before a judge the two contending parties should be treated the same way." Afterward, he accepted the sentence, which was unfavorable to him. I ask you, you who have traveled and seen all forms or government and know history, can you give me a better example of democracy? FALLACI: Imam, democracy means much more than that. This is said by many Iranians, too. The same Iranians who don't understand the direction where your Islamic Republic is going. KIIOMEINI: If you foreigners do not understand, too bad for you. It's none of your business, you have nothing to do with our choices. If some Iranians don't understand it, too bad for them. It means that they have not understood Islam. FALLACI: Well, They certainly understand the despotism practiced by the clergy today, Imam. In drafting the new Constitution, the assembly of experts passed one article, the fifth principle, by which the head of the country will have to be the supreme religious authority. That is, you. And the supreme decisions will be made only by those who know the Koran well. That is, the clergy. Doesn't this mean that, according to the Constitution, politics will continue to be determined by the priests and no one else? KHOMEINI: This law, which the people will ratify, is in no way in contradiction with democracy. Since the people love the clergy, have faith in the clergy, want to be guided by the clergy, it is right that the supreme religious authority should oversee the work of the Prime Minister or of the President of the republic, to make sure that they don't make mistakes or go against the law: that is, against the Koran. It can be either the supreme religious authority, or a representative group of the clergy. FALLACI: Let's consider for a moment the justice administered by the clergy, Imam. Let's talk about the 500 executions that took place In Iran after the victory. Do you approve of the summary way in which these trials are taking place, without lawyers, without the chance for an appeal? KHOMEINI: Evidently in the West you ignore, or you pretend to ignore, who was being executed. They were persons who participated In massacres in the streets and the squares, or persons who ordered those massacres, or persons who burned down homes, who tortured, who cut off the arms and legs of those who were being Interrogated. What should we have done with them, granted pardons and let them go free? The right to defend themselves, and to respond to accusations - we gave them those chances. But once their guilt was demonstrated, what need was there, or is there, for an appeal? Write the contrary if you want, the pen Is In your hand. My people do not ask your questions. And I will even go farther: had we not executed those criminals, the revenge of the people would have gone beyond control. Every functionary employee of the regime would have been executed, and the dead would have numbered far more than 500. They would have been in the thousands. F ALLACI: All right, but I did not necessarily mean the tortures and the Savak killers, Imam. I meant· those who were executed and had nothing to do With the regime, the people who are still being shot today for adultery, or prostitution, or homosexuality. Is It right to shoot the poor prostitute or a woman who is unfaithful to her husband, or a man who loves another man? KHOMEINI: If your finger suffers from gangrene, what do you do? Do you let the whole hand, and then the body, become filled with gangrene, or do you cut the finger off? What brings corruption to an entire country and its people must be pulled up like the weeds that infest a field of wheat. I know there are societies where women are permitted to give themselves to satisfy the desire of men who are not their husbands, and where men are permitted to give themselves to satisfy other men's desires. But the society that we want to build does not permit such things. In Islam, we want to implement a policy to purify society, and in order to achieve this aim we must punish those who bring evil to our youth. Don't you do the same? When a thief is a thief, don't you throw him in jail? In many countries, don't you even execute murderers? Don't you use that system because, if they were to remain free and alive, they would contaminate others and spread their stain of wickedness? FALLACI: Imam, how Is it possible to compare a Savak murderer and torturer with a citizen who exercises his sexual freedom? Take the example of the boy they shot yesterday, for sodomy. KHOMEINI: Corruption, corruption. We have to eliminate corruption. FALLACI: Take the case of the pregnant l8-year-old girl who was shot at Beshar a few weeks ago, for adultery. KHOMEINI: Pregnant? Lies, lies. Lies like those about cutting out the breasts of women. In Islam, these things do not happen. We do not shoot pregnant women in Islam. FALLACI: They are not lies, Imam. All the Iranian newspapers reported the news, and a debate was held on television because her lover was only given a hundred lashes. KHOMEINI: If that Is true, it means that she got what she deserved. What do I know about particulars? The woman must have done something more serious. Ask the court that condemned her. Stop talking about these things. I am getting tired. These are not important matters. FALLACI: Then let's talk about the Kurds who are being executed because they want autonomy. KHOMEINI: The Kurds who are being executed do not belong to the Kurdish people. They are subversives who are acting against the people and against the revolution, such as the one who was shot by a firing squad yesterday. He had killed 13 people. I would prefer it if no one had to be executed, but when someone like the person they caught is shot, it makes me feel good. FALLACI: And what about when persons are arrested, like the five this morning, because they were distributing Communist handouts? KHOMEINI: If they were arrested it was because they deserved it. because they were serving a foreign interest, like the phony Communists who act on behalf of America, and of the Shah. Enough. I've said enough about these things. FALLACI: O.K., Imam. Let's talk about the Shah. Was it you, Imam, who gave the order to have the Shah executed abroad, and who said that whoever performed this feat would be considered a hero, and if he were to be killed during the operation, he would go to heaven? KHOMEINI: No! Not I. Because I want the Shah brought to Iran to stand trial in public, for 50 years of crimes against the Persian people. including the crimes of treason and robbery. If he were killed abroad, that money would be lost. And if, instead, we judge him here, we can get that money back. No, no. I do not want him to be killed abroad. I want him here, here. And in order to make it happen, I pray for his health, just as the Ayatollah [Kazem Shariat-] Madari prayed for the health of Riza Pahlevi, the father of this Pahlevi. who also fled the country with a lot of money. FALLACI: But if the Shah returned the money, would you stop the hunt? KHOMEINI: For the money, if he really returned it, yes. But with regard to the treason against this country. and against Islam, no. How can he be forgiven for the massacre of 16 years ago - or the Black Friday massacre of one year ago? How can he be forgiven for all the death he left behind? Only if the dead were to come back to life could I pardon him. and accept the money. FALLACI: And in order to bring him back to Iran. there would be an operation similar to the one which led to the capture of Eichmann in Argentina, I suppose. Does it apply only to the Shah or to his family as well? KHOMEINI: He Who has committed crime is guilty. If the family did not participate in any crime I do not see why they should be condemned. Belonging to the Shah's family is no crime in itself. His son Riza. for example. did not dirty himself by any crimes, as far as I know. Thus. I have nothing against him. He can return to Persia. to Iran, whenever he wants. and live here as a normal citizen. Let him come back. FALLACI: I say he won't come back. Imam. And what about Farah Diba [the Shah's wife]? KHOMEINI: The tribunal will decide about her. FALLACI: And Ashraf [Princess Ashraf Pahlevi, the Shah's sister]? KHOMEINI: Ashraf is the evil twin of the Shah. a traitoress, just like the Shah. And for the crimes she committed, she must be prosecuted and condemned just as the Shah. FALLACI: And the former Prime Minister. [Shahpur] Bakhtiar? [Bakhtiar disappeared last Feb. 12.] Bakhtiar says that he will return to his position, Imam, that he already has a Government to substitute for this Government. KHOMEINI: If Bakhtiar should be executed or not, I cannot say as yet. But I do know that he must be prosecuted. I Let him come back, let him come back, even with his new Government. Let him come back. even arm in arm with the Shah. Thus, they would end up in court together. Yes, I must admit that I would very much like to see Bakhtiar together with the Shah, hand-in-hand. I'm looking forward to It. FALLACI: Death to Bakhtiar also, therefore. Imam Khomeini. haven't you ever forgiven anyone? Have you ever felt pity, sympathy for someone? And while we are at it, have you ever cried? KHOMEINI: I cry. I laugh, I suffer. Do you think I'm not a human being? With regard to forgiving: I pardoned the majority of those who caused us harm. I granted an amnesty to the police, to the gendarmes, to a lot of people. That is, to those who were not involved in torture or serious crimes. I just granted an amnesty to the rebel Kurds. Thus I believe that I have demonstrated pity. But for those that we discussed before. there is no pardon, there is no pity. Now that's enough. I am tired, that's enough. FALLACI: Please, Imam. there are many things I still want to ask you. For example, this chador that they made me put on. to come to you, and which you insist all women must wear. Tell me, Why do you force them to hide themselves. all bundled up under these uncomfortable and absurd garments. making it hard to work and move about? And yet. even here, women have demonstrated that they are equal to men. They fought just like the men, were imprisoned and tortured. They. too. helped to make the revolution. KHOMEINI: The women who contributed to the revolution were, and are, women with the Islamic dress, not elegant women all made up like you, who go around all uncovered, dragging behind them a tail of men. The coquettes who put on makeup and go into the street shOWing off their necks, their hair, their shapes, did not fight against the Shah. They never did anything good, not those. They do not know how to be useful, neither socially, nor politically, nor professionally. And this is so because by uncovering themselves, they distract men and upset them. Then they distract and upset even other women. FALLACI: That's not true. Imam. In any case. I am not only talking about a piece of clothing, but what it represents. That Is, the condition of segregation into which women have been cast once again, after the revolution. The fact that they can't study at university with men, or work with men, for example, or go to the beach or to a swimming pool with men. They have to take a dip apart, In their chadors. By the way, how do you Swim in a chador? KHOMEINI: This is none of your business. Our customs are none of your business. If you do not like Islamic dress you are not obliged to wear it. Because Islamic dress is for good and proper young women. F ALLACI: That's very kind of you, Imam. And since you said so, I'm going to take off this stupid. medieval rag right now. There. Done. But tell me something. A woman such as I. who has always lived among men, showing her neck, her hair, her ears, who has been in war and slept in the front line in the field among soldiers, according to you, is she an immoral, bold and improper woman? KHOMEINI: Your conscience knows the answer. I do not judge personal matters, I cannot know whether your life is moral or immoral, whether you behaved properly or not with the soldiers at the front. But I do know that, during my long lifetime, I have always been right about what I said. If this piece of clothing did not exist - the Islamic dress - women could not work in a useful and healthy way. And not even men. Our laws are valid laws. FALLACI: Even if the law permits a man to have four wives, Imam? KHOMEINI: The law of the four wives is a very progressive law, and was written for the good of women, since there are more women than men. More women are born than men, and more men are killed in war than women. A woman needs a man, so what can we do, since there are more women than men in the world? Would you rather prefer that the excess number of women became whores - or that they married a man with other wives? And let me add another point. Even under the difficult conditions which Islam imposes on a man with two or three or four wives, there is equal treatment, equal affection, and equal time; this law is better than monogamy. FALLACI: But you are talking about laws and customs that go back 1.400 years ago, Imam Khomeini. Doesn't it seem to you that the world has progressed since then? In observance of those laws, you have even resurrected the prohibition against music and alcohol. Tell me, why is It a sin to drink a glass of wine or beer, when you are thirsty or when you're eating? And why is listening to music a sin? Our priests drink and sing - even the Pope. Does this mean the Pope is a sinner? KHOMEINI: The rules of your priests do not interest me. Islam prohibits alcoholic drinks and that's all. It prohibits them in an absolute way, because drinking makes peopIe lose their heads and Impedes clear thinking. Even music dulls the mind. because it involves pleasure and ecstasy. similar to drugs. Your music, I mean. Usually your music has not exalted the spirit, it puts it to sleep. And it destructs our youth, who become poisoned by it, and then they no longer care about their country. FALLACI: Even the music of Bach. Beethoven, Verdi? KHOMEINI: I do not know those names. If their music does not dull the mind, they wlll not be prohibited. Some of your music is permitted. For example. marches and hymns for marching. We want music that lifts the spirit, as in marches, music that makes our youth move instead of paralyzing them, music that helps them to care about their country. Yes, but your marches are permitted. FALLACI: Imam Khomeini. you always use harsh terms when speaking of the West. Any judgment you express about us draws the conclusion that you view us as champions of every kind of ugliness. every kind of perversion. And yet you were accepted by the West when you went Into exile, and many of your associates started in the West. Doesn't it appear to you that there Is also something good about us? KHOMEINI: Something, yes. Something. But when we have been bitten by a snake. we are even afraid of a piece of rope which from afar looks like a snake. And you have bitten us too much, and too long. You only saw In us a market. and that was all. You only exported bad things to us. and that was all. The good things, such as material progress. you kept such things for yourself. Yes, we got many bad things from the West, a lot of suffering. and now we have good reasons to fear the West, to keep our youth from getting too close to the West and being influenced even more by the West. No, I do not want our youth to go and study in the West, where they become corrupted by alcohol. by the music that blocks out thought, by drugs and uncovered women. To say nothing of the fact that our youth are not given the same treatment as your youth in the West. You give our youth a diploma even if they are ignorant. FALLACI: Yes. Imam, but the airplane that brought you back to your country is a product of the West - even the telephone that you use to communicate with. from Qum, even the television set that you so often use to convey messages to the country, even this airconditioner, which permits you to remain cool in this desert. If we are so corrupt and so corrupting, why do you use our evil tools? KHOMEINI: Because these are the good things from the West. And we are not afraid to use them, and we do. We are not afraid of your science and of your technology. We are afraid of your Ideas and of your customs. Which means that we fear you politically and socially. And we want this to be our country. We do not want you to interfere anymore In our politics and our economy, in our habits, our affairs. And from now on, we will go against anyone who tries to interfere - from the right or from the left, from here or from there. And now that's enough. Go away. Go away. FALLACI: One last question, Imam. During these days that I have been in Iran, I have noticed a lot of discontent, a lot of disorder and chaos. The revolution has not brought the good fruits it promised. The country is sailing in dark waters. and there are some who see very difficult times for Iran. There are even those who foresee a development of the conditions for a civil war. or a coup d'etat. What do you think? KHOMEINI: I shall say this. We are like the child that is only six months old. Our revolution is only six months old. And it is a revolution that took place in a country that was eaten alive like a field of wheat Infested with locusts. We are at the beginning of our road. What do you expect of a child that is six months old. born in a field filled with locusts, after 2.500 years of bad harvests and 50 years of poisonous harvests? That past cannot be wiped out in a few months, not even in a few years. We need time. We ask for time. And, above all, we address ourselves to those who call themselves Communists, or democrats. or God knows what. They are the ones who do not want to give us time. They are the ones who attack us, and spread around talk of civil wars and coups which won't take place be. cause the people are united. They are the ones who are spreading chaos. Those who call themselves Communists and democrats and God knows what, I repeat. Now, goodbye. Insha-Allah .

بازگشت به بالاى صفحه

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متن فارسى مصاحبه كه توسط جمهورى اسلامى منتشر گرديده است:

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فالاچي: من قبل از هر چيز، مرگ مرحوم طالقاني را به شما تسليت عرض مي كنم

* - آيت الله خمينى: ان شاءالله موفق باشند. تشكر مي كنم از تسليت ايشان

* - اميدوارم حضرت امام به سؤالاتي كه من مي كنم كه شايد بعضي ها به ظاهر مسخره بيايد و بعضي ها ناراحت كننده باشد، ولي اميدوارم كه با صبر و حوصله اي كه من در ايشان مي بينم به سادگي جواب بدهند.

* - بگوييد كه اگر سؤال ها بخواهد زياد باشد من وقت ندارم و محدود باشد. يك چند سؤالي باشد عيب ندارد. سؤال ها را انتخاب كنيد و آن سؤالي كه مهم است بكنيد. براي اين كه زياد طول مي كشد.

* - حضرت امام خميني ! ايران در دست شماست و حرف هاي شما كاملاً مورد قبول است و حرف هاي شما قانون مي شود در اين كشور و حالت اجرايي پيدا مي كند. در مملكت بعضي ها هستند كه فكر مي كنند در اين كشور آزادي نيست . حضرت تان چه مي فرماييد؟

* - بگوييد كه ايران در دست من نيست ، در دست ملت است . و ملت هم كسي كه خدمتگزار باشد و مصالح شان را بخواهد، با آزادي مطلق ، به او ممكن است رو بياورد. و شما ملاحظه كرديد و در فوت مرحوم آقاي طالقاني سرنيزه اي نبود، زوري نبود، مردم با آزادي ريختند در خيابان ها و همه ي ايران منقلب شد. اين نه اين است كه آزادي بدون قانون وجود داشته باشد، آن آزادي نيست . منتها آزادي است كه مردم روي محبت و عشق شان و روي يك مبادي و مبادي الهي به بعضي اشخاص كه اين ها را مي شناختند به اين كه الهي هستند روي مي آورند؛ و اين آزادگي است .

* - آن طوري كه از بيانات تان در قم در گذشته نه نزديك ، خيلي دور فرموده ايد و حقيقتي بوده آن ، مدرن شدن يك انسان است كه بتواند آزاد بينديشد و آزاد تصميم بگيرد و آزاد انتخاب بكند. چه طور امكان دارد، الان در كشور، كمونيست ها و ساير اقليت ها ـ چه سياسي و چه مذهبي و چه ملي ـ نمي توانند آزادانه اظهار بيان بكنند و اظهار انديشه بكنند.

* - بگوييد شما اول خيال كرديد مسئله اي را، بعد علتش را مي پرسيد. در مملكت ما آزادي انديشه هست . آزادي قلم هست . آزادي بيان هست . ولي آزادي توطئه و آزادي فسادكاري نيست . شما اگر توقع داريد كه ما بگذاريم بر [ عليه ] ما توطئه كنند و مملكت ما را به هرج و مرج بكشند، به فساد بكشند و مقصودشان از آزادي اين است ، در هيچ جاي دنيا همچو آزادي نيست . و اگر آزادي انديشه است ، آزادي بيان است ، اين آقاي بني صدر مطلعند و ما مطلعيم كه ايشان دعوت مي كردند همين كمونيست ها را و همان اشخاصي كه غير ما فكر مي كردند، دعوت مي كنند كه بياييد صحبت هاي تان را بكنيد. و ما پنج ماه بيش تر بلكه به طور مطلق به اين ها آزادي داديم ؛ يعني آزاد بودند كه هر چه مي خواهند، حتي الانش هم هر كاري كردند. لكن اخيراً كه ما مطلع شديم كه با الهام از رژيم سابق و با الهام از اجانب و كساني كه مي خواهند به تباهي بكشند؛ توطئه كردند، خرابكاري كردند، خرمن ها را آتش زدند، صندوق هاي آرا را آتش زدند و با تفنگ و اسلحه آن رفتار را كردند. قضاياي اطراف كردستان را همان ها پيش آوردند و ساير قضايا را هم آن ها اگر ما سستي كنيم ، پيش مي آورند. اگر آزادي ، آزادي بيان و عقيده و انديشه است ، آزادي هست و بوده است . اين چيزي كه جلويش گرفته شده است ، اين است كه در ممالك ديگر آن جا كه انقلاب شد و صددرصد ادعاي آزادي مي كردند، بعد از انقلاب مطلقاً جلوگيري كردند از كساني كه توطئه مي كردند. ما پنج ماه است و بيش تر است مهلت داديم به آن ها تا اين كه بر مردم ثابت شد، به دنيا ثابت شد به اين كه قضيه ، قضيه ي آزادي بيان نيست . قضيه ، قضيه ي آزادي توطئه است . اين آزادي توطئه را هيچ كس ، هيچ جا به هيچ كس نمي تواند بدهد.

* - البته اين سؤالاتي است كه قبلاً مي دانيد كه معمولاً خبرنگارها از شما مي كردند. پس چه دليلي بود كه مثلاً روزنامه هاي مخالف مخصوصاً آيندگان ، بسته بشود؟

* - روزنامه ي آيندگان همان بود كه با دشمن هاي ما روابط داشت . توطئه بود در كار و با صهيونيست ها روابط داشت . از آن ها الهام مي گرفت و بر ضد منافع مملكت و كشور مي نوشت . و در تمام آن روزنامه هايي كه توطئه گر بودند و مي خواستند رژيم سابق را دوباره برگردانند به اين جا. اين روزنامه ها جلوشان گرفته شد تا بفهمند به اين كه چه طورند اين ها و بعد از اين كه فهميدند هر كدام كه [ توطئه گر ] نيستند، نه ، آزاد باشند. همه ي روزنامه هايي كه بودند، به اعتبار اين كه دادستان آن طوري كه فهميده است اين ها توطئه گر بودند و مفسد بودند و اين ها الهام از شاه و از دستگاه صهيونيست ها مي گرفتند، از اين جهت اين ها را توقيف كردند موقتاً، تا اين كه رسيدگي كنند. اين خلاف آزادي نيست . اين جلوگيري از توطئه است كه همه ي دنيا بوده است كه جلوي اين توطئه را بگيرند.

* - حضرت امام ! اين هايي كه الان دم از مخالفت مي زنند، عده اي هستند كه اكثرشان مبارزه كرده اند و زجر كشيده اند و ضد رژيم گذشته بودند. چه طور امكان دارد كه فضا و حق وجود به چپي كه اين همه مبارزه و رنج كشيده ، نداد؟

* - امكان ندارد. حتي يكي شان نه مبارزه كرده اند، نه رنج كشيده اند. همه از دولت و از رنج هاي اين ملت ما استفاده برده اند و بر ضد ملت ما قلمفرسايي كرده اند.

* - منظورم گروه هاي سياسي اند، مثلاً احزاب توده ، مثلاً فداييان ، مجاهدين .

* - و احزاب هم همين طور، آن ها هم ـ خلاف آزادي شان ـ اگر توطئه گر نباشند. حالا عملي كه بر خلاف آزادي باشد، نكرده اند و نشده است . و اما اين كه مي گوييم آن ها رنج كشيده اند و در اين باره فعاليت كرده اند، اين معلوم مي شود كه درست از اوضاع ما مطلع نيستيد. آن ها كه رنج كشيده اند اين توده ي مردمند كه رنج كشيده اند. آن ها يك عده اي شان در خارج بوده اند و حالا آمده اند در داخل و مي خواهند استفاده بكنند بدون رنجش . يك دسته هم اين جا بودند و در پناهگاه ها يا در خانه ها بودند. و بعد از اين كه ملت ، رنج ها را كشيد و خون داد و همه ي كارها را كرد، اين ها آمدند و دارند استفاده مي برند. و مع ذلك كسي جلوي اين ها را نگرفته است و آزادي دارند.

* - منظور من بيش تر روي چپي هايي است كه در زندان هم بوده اند، يا به دست شاه شكنجه شدند.

* - در اين نهضت ما دخالت نداشتند. در نهضت ما هيچ يك از اين ها، بلكه مخالف بودند. همين چهار تا هم كه الان برخلاف ما دارند فعاليت مي كنند، آن ها يك مسلك خاصي داشتند و روي مسلك خاص شان هستند. نهضت ما يك نهضت اسلامي بود كه چپي با آن مخالف است و مخالفت او هم با ما بيش تر است از مخالفت شاه . و آن ها هم توطئه گر هستند و مي خواهند همان مسائل را برگردانند. و من نظرم اين است كه چپي هاي ساختگي اند، نه چپي هاي واقعي و ساخت آمريكا هم هستند، بنابراين اين طور نيست كه شما خيال كرديد كه چپي ها يك دسته اي هستند كه در نهضت ما دخالت داشتند. هيچ دخالتي آن ها در نهضت ما نداشتند، البته آن ها براي مقصد خودشان هر چه بوده اين جا و آن جا كرده اند، و يك كارهايي انجام داده اند و هيچ ربطي به نهضت ما ندارد. نهضت ما هيچ ارتباطي با چپي ها ندارد. و چپي ها هم هيچ خدمتي به نهضت ما نكرده اند. و هر چه كرده اند كارشكني و خلاف بوده است . حالا هم توطئه گري از چپي ها است ، و اين چپي هاي ساختگي اند، نه چپي هاي واقعي .

* - حضرت امام ! مي شود بيان كنيد كه اين ملت براي آزادي مبارزه كرده يا براي اسلام ؟

* - براي اسلام جنگيده ، لكن محتواي اسلام همه ي آن معاني است كه در عالَم به خيال خودشان بوده كه مي گويند دمكراسي . اسلام همه ي اين واقعيت ها را دارد. و ملت ما هم براي همه ي اين واقعيات جنگيده اند، و لكن در رأسش خود اسلام است و اسلام همه ي اين را دارد.

* - يك تعريف ساده از آزادي ، بيان كنيد.

* - آزادي يك مسئله اي نيست كه تعريف داشته باشد. مردم عقيده شان آزاد است . كسي الزام شان نمي كند كه شما بايد حتماً اين عقيده را داشته باشيد. كسي الزام به شما نمي كند كه حتماً بايد اين راه را برويد. كسي الزام به شما نمي كند كه بايد اين را انتخاب كني . كسي الزام تان نمي كند كه در كجا مسكن داشته باشي ، يا در آن جا چه شغلي را انتخاب كني . آزادي يك چيز واضحي است .

* - آزادي آيا در حدي براي مردم هست كه بتوانند سيستم دولت خودشان را تعيين كنند، آيا اين آزادي هم براي ملت هست ؟

* - به همان ترتيبي كه در همه جاي دنيا هست آن ها مي توانند وكيل انتخاب كنند. وكيل مي تواند به حسب آن چيزي كه ملت به او اعطا كرده ، دولت را تصويب كند يا رد بكند. رييس جمهور را خود مردم تعيين بكنند. همه ي اين ها با دست خود مردم هست و خودشان مي توانند انجام بدهند.

* - حضرت امام ! شما چرا از اول روي يك كلمه خط كشيديد و آن دمكراتيك است كه رويش خط كشيديد و فرموديد «جمهوري اسلامي » نه يك كلمه بيش تر و نه يك كلمه كم تر. اين كلمه كه اين قدر عزيز است ، براي ما عزيز است و شما خطش زديد و در كشور الان باز در اين باره صحبت مي كنند.

* - بله اين مسائلي دارد. يك مسئله اين است كه اين توهم ، اين را در ذهن مي آورد كه اسلام محتوايش خالي است از اين ، لذا احتياج به اين است كه يك قيدي پهلويش بياورند و اين براي ما بسيار حزن انگيز است كه در محتواي يك چيزي كه همه ي چيزها به طريق بالاترش و مهم ترش در آن هست ، حالا ما بياييم بگوييم كه ما اسلام مي خواهيم و اما با اسلام مان دمكراسي باشد، اسلام همه چيز است . مثل اين است كه شما بگوييد كه ما اسلام را مي خواهيم و مي خواهيم كه به خدا هم اعتقاد داشته باشيم ، ولي به شرط اين كه به خدا هم معتقد باشيم . اين براي ما خيلي ناراحت كننده است كه كسي يك همچو خيالي داشته باشد. اين اولاً، و ثانياً اين كلمه ي دمكراسي كه پيش شما اين قدر عزيز است يك مفهوم مُبَيَّني ندارد. ارسطو يك جور معني كرده . شوروي يك جور معني كرده . سرمايه دارها يك جور معني كرده و ما در قانون اساسي مان نمي توانيم يك لفظ مبهمي كه هر كس براي خودش يك معني كرده است ، آن را بگذاريم . به جاي آن اسلام را گذاشتيم كه اسلام مُبَيَّن مي كند حد وسط چيست . اين مخالف با هيچ چيزي نيست ، ولي آن هايي كه نفهميده اند كه اسلام را، خارجي ها كه با اسلام كار ندارند، آن ها كه در داخل هستند و اسلام را نمي دانند چه رژيمي است ، چه حالي دارد، از اين جهت يك امكان به خيال شان دارد. من حالا براي شما مثال مي زنم از اين آزادي و دمكراسي . يك چيزي كه تاريخ مي گويد و آن قضيه ي حضرت امير ـ سلام اللّ'ه عليه ـ است كه در وقتي كه رييس و خليفه ي رسول اللّ'ه بود و دامنه ي اين رياست عملي اش و سياستش از حجاز تا مصر و تمام تقريباً بسياري از آسيا، يك مقداري حتي اروپا داشت . همين شخص كه رييس يك همچو مملكت وسيعي بود و داراي همچو قدرتي بود و قاضي را هم خودِ خليفه ي رسول الله تعيين مي كرد، وقتي يك اختلافي بين آن رييس و يك يهودي حاصل شد قاضي دعوت كرد او را به اين كه بيايد جواب بدهد. او هم رفت در محضر قاضي نشست . قاضي خواست به او احترام بكند. گفت نه ، يك نفر قاضي بايد احترام از هيچ كس نكند و ما علي السوا بايد باشيم . و بعد هم كه قاضي حكم بر خلاف او كرد، او تصديق و قبول كرد. من ميل دارم كه شما كه اطلاع داريد از همه ي حكومت ها و از همه ي جاها، يك نمونه ي اين طوري هم شما نشان بدهيد. در تمام اين حكومت هايي كه در دنيا ـ از اول دنيا تا حالا ـ حكومت ها بودند و شما لابد مطلع هستيد. شما هم يك نمونه ي اين طوري به ما نشان بدهيد، كه آن از اين اولي ' است .

* - نه ، من همچو نمونه اي الان ندارم به شما تذكر بدهم . ولي در عوض ، شما الان انقلاب كرديد، ولي هنوز ثروتمند و فقير در بين كشور شما هست . و چند حزبي كه به صورت عيني دمكراسي است كه اگر يك دسته اي رأي نياورد بتواند يك دسته ي ديگر جاي او باشد، مثل انگليس كه گاهي حزب كارگر و گاهي حزب محافظه كار. همچو وضعي آيا شما در كشورتان اجازه خواهيد داد و اين عدالت اقتصادي را اجازه خواهيد داد؟

* - ما الان بچه ي شش ماهه داريم ، و در اين پنچاه و چند سال . ثانياً با آن وضع و با آن گرفتاري هايي كه ايران داشته است شما چه توقع از يك بچه ي شش ماهه اي كه پنچاه و چند سال در زمان ما و 2500 سال در تاريخ عقب زده شده است ! الان اول راه اين است و تمام خرابي هايي كه الان با آن مواجه هستيم ، خرابي هايي است كه رژيم سابق براي ما گذاشته است . در زمان ما هيچ خرابي حاصل نشده . زمان ما همه ي كوشش براي درست كردن وضع ملت است . درست كردن وضع كشاورزي و ساير كارخانه ها و امثال ذلك . و شما توقع داريد كه ما بتوانيم در همين چند ماه يا چند سال برويم به آن حدي كه همه مان ، ملت مان در رفاه باشد، همه ي كارها هم درست شده باشد؟ همه ي آشفتگي هايي كه تحميل به ما شده است ، همه ي اين ها با يك اوقات كمي درست بشود؟ ما فرصت مي خواهيم و فرصت مان را از اين كساني كه شما مي گوييد كمونيستند و دمكراتند و امثال اين ها، از اين ها فرصت مي خواهيم كه اين ها به ما فرصت بدهند تا ما رسيدگي كنيم . به حال ملت و رسيدگي كنيم . مملكت را اين طوري كه اين ها مي گويند اداره كنيم . اقتصادمان الان ورشكسته است ، پي ريزي بكنيم ، ما الان مهلت نداريم ، ما الان در آشفتگي هستيم . و همه ي آشفتگي ها هم زير سر همين هايي است كه شما مي گوييد دمكرات هستند. و شماها مي گوييد كمونيست هستند و اين ها. ما همه ي گرفتاري مان اين ها هستند. اين گرفتاري ها كه رد بشود احزاب آزاد هستند. ما جلوي آزادي را هيچ وقت نمي گيريم . اسلام هم جلوي آزادي را هيچ وقت نگرفته است بيش از اين كه جلو توطئه را، كه همه ي عالم همين طورند. ما هم همين طور هستيم .

* - من در قيافه ي شما نگاه مي كنم كه يك قياقه ي آرامي است ، و طبيعي است و نرم است . اما دنيا يك قيافه اي از شما، قيافه ي سخت ، خشن ، ترسناكي درست كرده . آيا اين قيافه اي كه از شما ساخته اند. براي شما رنج آور نيست . شما را ديكتاتور جديد ايران مي خوانند، اين شما را ناراحت نمي كند؟

* - از يك جهت البته ناراحتي دارد. و آن اين كه دشمن هاي ما چه قدر برخلاف انسانيت عمل مي كنند. ما متأسفيم كه يك طايفه اي اين قدر برخلاف انسانيت ، برخلاف انصاف رفتار كند. از اين جهت البته ناراحتي دارد. ما به حسب تعاليم اسلام براي عيب هايي كه در بشر هست ، بايد متأثر باشيم . و از جهتي به نظر ما اهميتي خيلي ندارد. براي اين كه ما يك راه حقي مي رويم . و البته در يك راه حقي كه در مقابل ابرقدرت هاست ، مقابل با منافع بزرگ يك كشورهايي است كه مي خواهند اين ها را بخورند و ببرند. و من نمي توانم متوقع باشم كه آن ها بنشينند و نگاه بكنند. ما نگذاريم كارهاي شان را بكنند. البته اين براي ما خيلي بي سابقه نيست . همچو نيست كه ـ يا همچو بوده است كه ـ يك كار بي سابقه اي بوده است براي ما. ما مي دانستيم كه يك همچو حرف هايي هست . هميشه هست كه يك ضعيفي كه در مقابل يك قدرت هاي بزرگي مي خواهد جلوگيري بكند اين تهمت ها برايش هست . كساني كه اجير هستند از طرف شاه ، كساني كه اجير هستند از طرف قدرت هاي بزرگ ، ما توقع نداشته باشيم كه هيچ به ما زهري ، زهرچشمي وارد نكنند. خوب ، ما هم در خارج مي بينيم كه در مملكت ما دارند آشوب مي كنند. عيناً مي بينيم كه آشوب مي كنند. و ما هم مي دانيم كه به اين كه در روزنامه ها كه نوشته اند كه به امر خميني پستان هاي زن ها را بريده ، با زن ها چه كرده ، البته دشمن است ، ولي من متأسفم كه دشمن ها اين قدر خلاف انصاف و خلاف انسانيت عمل كنند.

* - آن هايي كه از شما ترس ندارند و من ديدم كه الان اين جا جلوي منزل شما و در تهران هم ديدم كه «خميني ، خميني » مي كنند. اين ها يك احساسي به انسان دست مي دهد كه از يك تعصبي مي آيد. آيا شما اين را خطرناك نمي بينيد براي پيشرفت آدم ، رشد انسان ؟

* - اين تعصب نيست . اين آزادي دوستي است . اين به اصطلاح شما دمكراسي دوستي است . اين ها احساس كرده اند كه روي مصالح آن ها عمل مي كنيم . احساس كرده اند كه ما نمي خواهيم ظلم بكنيم . به آن ها نمي خواهيم ظلم بكنيم . آن ها را نمي خواهيم به زور وادار بكنيم به يك كاري . اين احساس كه آن ها از اسلام دارند و اين احساس هم دارند كه ما همان تبع اسلام هستيم و مطابق احكام اسلام عمل مي كنيم . اين دو احساس در مردم هست . يكي اين كه اسلام را مي دانند كه رژيمي است كه عدالت در آن هست . و ما را هم مي دانند كه ما تابع يك رژيمي هستيم كه عدالت هست . و ما مي خواهيم اجرا كنيم عدالت را. از اين جهت است اين احساسات . نه يك تعصب خشكي باشد بدون منطق ، بدون مبنا. و من اصلاً هيچ خطري در اين ، احساس نخواهم كرد.

* - شما خطر فاشيسم را در ايران امروز مي بينيد؟

* - هيچ ، ابداً همچو خطري نيست . مادامي كه اين ملت به اسلام توجه دارد و تابع اسلام است و ما حكومت اسلامي مي خواهيم درست كنيم ، هيچ خوفي نيست . هيچ ديكتاتوري نخواهد بود. و هيچ خطري براي اين مطالب نيست . ما وقتي خطردار هستيم كه كمونيسم بتواند به ما غلبه كند كه آن وقت اول گرفتاري و ديكتاتوري مي باشد. يا رژيمي نظير رژيم شاه پيش بيايد. آن هم همان طور است . و اما آن رژيمي كه ما مي خواهيم ، آن رژيمي است كه ملت ما دنبالش هستند، ديكتاتوري در آن معصيت بزرگ است . و فاشيستي از معاصي بزرگ است پيش ملت ما. و هيچ همچو خطري نيست پيش ما.

* - در اين فاشيسم جنبه ي مردمي و توده اي اش قوي است . در ايتاليا ـ كه ما در آن جا زندگي كرده ايم ـ و در آلمان ، موسوليني و هيتلر به افكار اين جوري تكيه داشتند. و اين خطر هميشه هست كه توده ي مردم به تدريج نوعي حكومت ديكتاتوري را به وجود بياورند و آن رژيمي كه به وجود مي آيد كاملاً متكي به افكار عمومي است . اما در اعمال خودش مثل همان مطلق العنان ها عمل مي كند.

* - توده ي ما توده ي مسلمان است . تعليمات اسلامي همان طوري كه در روحانيت هست ، آن ها به مردم هم تعليم كردند. و تمام اين مسائل اسلامي كه بر مبناي عدالت است و بر مبناي آزادي است و بر مبناي اختيار مردم است و بر مبناي آن چيزهاي متعالي است ، در اسلام هست ، و مردم هم او را دارند، بله امكان اين هست عقلاً كه اين مملكت از اسلام برگردد و بشود كمونيست . اگر چنين شد همه ي مردم از اسلام برگشتند و كمونيست شدند، اين خطر ـ البته ـ آن وقت هست براي اسلام . و اما مادامي كه ملت ما مسْلم است ، براي ملتي كه اسلام ندارد يا فرض كنيد كه تابع كمونيسم است ، يا تابع اصول و مسالك ديگري هست ، البته اين خطر در آن ها هست . و مملكت ما هيچ خطري به هيچ وجه ندارد.

* - مطلب ديگري كه در غرب خيلي در آن سر و صدا شده است مسئله اعدام ها كه مي گويند پانصد نفر تا حال در ايران اعدام شده اند، و اين ها بدون وكيل مدافع و بدون تجديد نظر. باز هم شما با اين ترتيب موافقيد؟

* - اين ها از باب اين كه يا غرب اين افراد را نشناخته است ، اولاً پانصد تا نيست و بسيار كم تر است . و علت اين است كه يا غربي ها نشناختند اين اشخاص را يا مي شناختند و مُعتمِّدند در اين كه خودشان را به نشناسي بزنند. اين ها افرادي بودند كه علناً بسياري شان آمدند و مردم را كشتند در خيابان ها. يا امر به كشتن مردم در خيابان ها دادند. و اين يك مسئله ي مبهمي نبوده است پيش ملت ما كه اين ها شايد صحيح بگويند. شايد دفاع از خودشان داشته باشند. يك كسي كه وارد بشود در يك جمعيتي و با تانك بزند و جوان ها را زير تانك ببرد، آن وقت يك نفر را در مقابل هزار نفر كه اين ها كشته اند بكشند مع ذلك به آن ها مهلت هم بدهند كه صحبت هاي شان را بكنند. اجازه ي رفتن داده شده است . البته قلم دست دشمن است و براي ما هر چه بخواهد مي نويسد. اما واقعيت اين طور نيست . و آن هايي كه در اين جا كشته شده اند نه عددشان آن قدر است و نه طوري بوده است كه برخلاف موازين باشد. اين ها هر كدام شان اشخاصي را كشته اند و فسادها ايجاد كرده اند. خانمان ها سوزانده اند. اشخاص را اره كردند در حبس هاي شان پاي آن ها را. اشخاص را روي تاوه گذاشته اند و متصل به برق كرده اند، در تاوه آن ها را بو داده اند. اين اشخاص البته كشته شدند و اين ها هم حق دفاع داشتند و در محكمه به اين ها اجازه ي اين كه وكيل بگيرند ندادند. لكن ما چه بكنيم كه قلم دست دشمن است و ما را مي خواهد اين طور صورت بدهد.

* - راجع به شاه شما چه مي گوييد؟ آيا شما دستور داده ايد كه او را در خارج بكُشند؟ و آيا به نظر شما اين كار ممكن است ؟

* - نه من دستور ندادم . من ميل دارم كه بيايد ايران و او را محاكمه كنيم . من اگر مي توانستم او را حفظش مي كردم و مي آوردمش ايران و علناً او را محاكمه مي كرديم براي اين پنجاه و چند سال ظلمي كه كرده . و آن خيانت هايي كه او كرده است جبران مي كرديم . و اين سرمايه هايي كه از ما به خارج برده است اگر او كشته بشود از دست ما مي رود. لكن اگر حفظش كنيم و بياوريم به اين جا ممكن است اين ثروت برگردد به ايران .

* - شما مايليد كه مثل آيشمن كه گرفتند آوردند به اسرائيل ، او را هم مثلاً بگيرند و به همان ترتيب بياورند ايران ؟

* - من مايلم كه او بيايد ايران . بياورندش ايران و ما محاكمه كنيم .

* - [ خطاب به مترجم : ] بگوييد به او كه مرحوم مدرس كه با شاه سابق دشمن سرسخت بود يك وقتي كه شاه به سفر رفته بود، وقتي آمده بود، مرحوم مدرس گفته بود كه من به شما دعا كردم . خيلي او خوشش آمده بود كه چه طور يك دشمن دعا كرده بود. گفته بود، نكته اين است كه اگر تو مرده بودي اموالي كه از ما غارت كرده بودي و به خارجي ها داده بودي همه از بين رفته بود. و من دعا كردم تو زنده باشي برگردي ، بلكه بتوانيم ما مال ها را برگردانيم . حالا ما هم همان طور هستيم و اين پسر هم بيش تر از او اموال ما را برده است به خارج .

* - اگر اموال را شاه پس بدهد، شما رهايش مي كنيد؟

* - راجع به خيانت هايش ، اگر چنان چه پول ها را به ما پس بدهد، آن مقداري كه پس بدهد البته ديگر حرفي با او نيست . اما يك خيانت هايي كه به ملت ما كرده است ، آن ها را جبران نمي شود كرد و نمي شود ولش كرد. يك خيانت هايي به اسلام كرده است . آن هم ما نمي توانيم جبران كنيم . اين جنايت هايي كه كرد، مردم را به كشتن داد دسته جمعي 15 خرداد، خود او از قراري كه به ما اطلاع داده اند عامل مستقيم قتل عام [ ملت ] ما بوده است . اين ها يك چيزي نيست كه بخشيدني باشد، آن هايي كه در 15 خرداد كشته ، همه را زنده كند، ديگر حرفي نيست .

* - يعني تنها شاه يا همه ي خانواده اش ؟

* - هر كدام كه خيانتكار باشند. مجرد اين كه كسي از خانواده ي شاه ابداً در بين ما چه بشود، وليعهد شاه بيايد مثل يكي از مردم اين جا زندگي بكند. كاري به ما نكرده است . هيچ كسي هم كاري به او ندارد. آن هايي كه مثل اشرف كه آن هم خواهر اوست . خواهر تني هم هست آن ها دوقلو بودند، آن هم نظير او جزو جنايتكارهاست . آن هم به اندازه ي جنايتي كه كرد و جنايت هايي كه كرده است . اين چه كاري به افراد خانواده ي ديگرش دارد. آن كه خيانتي نكرده بود كاري به او نداريم .

* - پسرش كاري كرده ؟

* - اين ها بايد به محكمه برسد. مي گويند، اما چه مي دانيم .

* - اين براي شما يك اميدي است كه او بايد بيايد ايران و محاكمه بشود. مطمئن ايد كه اين جور خواهد شد؟

* - تقريباً يك آرزو است .

* - يعني شما مطمئن باشيد چيزي از دست نمي دهيد. من تمام تبليغاتي كه عليه شما كردند به هم مي زنم .

* - خيال مي كنيد.

* - مي گويند اين ها كه اعدام شده اند، همه شان مقصر سياسي و ساواكي و اين ها نبودند. آن ها هم اعدام شدند براي اين كه لواط كردند و زنا كردند. البته من توضيح دادم كه اين جور نيست . اين ها تاجر و اين چيزها بودند و بچه ها را مي دزديدند و اين حرف ها، و اخبار دروغ به شما گفتند.

* - بله اصل مسئله را بايد گفت . و آن اين است كه اگر يك بدني يك انگشتش فاسد بشود چه بايد كرد براي اصلاح آن بدن . آيا بايد اين انگشت را گفت تو باش اين جا، فاسد كن اين بدن را؟ اين انگشت يك مفسده است و بايد بريد اين چيزهايي كه مي دانيد كه اين ها به فساد مي كشند. يك وقت مثل بعضي طوايف مي گويند كه خوب ، مردم آزادند. آن زن آزاد هست . زن اين باشد، او هم تمتعي ببرد. خوب ، چه بهتر. يك وقت منظور اين هست . نه ، ما اين را نمي توانيم بپذيريم . يك وقت منظور اين است كه بايد حفظ نظم جامعه ، حفظ صحت جامعه بشود. اين سياست هايي كه ما در اسلام داريم و اجرا مي شود براي اين است كه جامعه را ما مي خواهيم پاكسازي كنيم . علف هاي هرزه اي كه ضايع مي كنند مزرعه ي ما را، بايد اين علف هاي هرزه را بچينيم و دور بريزيم . آن كسي كه بخواهد يك جامعه را اصلاح بكند، آن كساني كه فساد در جامعه مي كنند، آن كساني كه جامعه را به تباهي مي كشند، آن كساني كه جوان هاي ما را به تباهي مي كشند، دخترهاي ما را به تباهي مي كشند آن ها را نمي توانيم تحمل كنيم كه نظر كنيم اين ها هر كار مي خواهند بكنند. و هر سياستي كه هست بايد بشود. چه پيش شما خيلي مشكل باشد پذيرفتنش و چه نباشد. ـ يك چيزي است ، به اصطلاح جامعه را مي خواهيم ـ اصلاً جامعه هم همان طوري كه دزد را شما مي گيريد و حبسش مي كنيد. خوب چرا آزادش قرار نمي دهيد؟ همان طوري كه قاتل را مي گيريد نگهش مي داريد، يا احياناً قصاص مي كنيد. چرا رهايش نمي كنيد كه هر كاري دلش مي خواهد بكند؟ چرا؟ اين براي اين است كه اين ها اسباب اين مي شود كه يك جامعه را به فساد بكشد. اگر جلوگيري از چند تا از اين فسادها بشود، جامعه اصلاح مي شود. و ما منظورمان اصلاح جامعه است . اصلاح جامعه به همين چيزهاست كه اين سياست ها باشد. [ خطاب به مترجم : ] و اما اين هايي كه واقع شد در اين جا همان طوري كه شما گفتيد، به او بگوييد كه اين ها امثال يك همچو مسائلي بودند.

* - بعضي هم مثلاً لواط مي كنند. بيمار هست ، فرض كنيد يك همچو چيزي ، چرا بايد اعدامش كنند؟

* - اين مايه ي فساد است . فساد را بايد برداشت تا ديگران اصلاح بشوند. اين ديگر مسائلي فرعي است .

* - مي گويند يك زن هجده ساله را كه آبستن بوده اين را به عنوان اين كه زنا كرده اعدام كردند.

* - دروغ است ، نمي شود، در اسلام نيست . اين جزو همان هاست كه به ما نسبت مي دهند.

* - اين روزنامه ها بودند كه درباره ي آن نوشتند.

* - بي اطلاعم . ما چه مي دانيم حالا چه شده . وقتي به محكمه رفته است محكمه حكم كرده است .

* - اين چادر، آيا صحيح است كه اين زن ها خود را در زير چادر مخفي كنند؟ اين زن ها در انقلاب شركت كردند. كشته دادند. زندان رفتند. مبارزه كردند، اين چادر هم يك رسم از قديم مانده اي است . حالا ديگر دنيا هم عوض شده . حالا اين صحيح است كه مثلاً اين ها خودشان را مخفي كنند؟

* - اولاً اين كه اين يك اختياري است براي آن ها، خودشان اختيار كردند. شما چه حقي داريد كه اختيار را از دست شان بگيريد؟ ما اعلام مي كنيم به زن ها كه هر كس چادر مي خواهد يا هر كس پوشش اسلامي ، بيايد بيرون . از 35 ميليون جمعيت ما 33 ميليونش بيرون مي آيد. شما چه حقي داريد كه جلو اين ها را بگيريد؟ اين چه ديكتاتوري است كه شما نسبت به زن ها داريد؟ و ثانياً اين كه ما يك پوششي خاص را نمي گوييم . براي حدود زن هايي كه به سن و سال شما رسيده اند هيچ چيزي نيست . ما زن هاي جواني كه وقتي ايشان آرايش مي كنند و مي آيند، يك فوج را دنبال خودشان مي كشند، اين ها را داريم جلوشان را مي گيريم . شما هم دل تان نسوزد.

* - من ديگر بلند شوم . شما هم دل تان نسوزد.

* - [خطاب به مترجم :] شما بگوييد اين ها را به ايشان .

* * *

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پايان متن مصاحبه اى كه در كتاب "گفتگوهاى اوريانا فالاچى" كه توسط غلامرضا امامى تاليف شده منتشر شده است .

بازگشت به بالاى صفحه